Maths Newbie Seeks help: Bob borrowed 200,000 at 0.0025%/month....

BigD

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Hi,

I have not done maths in a while and was wondering if anyone can either explain or link me to the concepts to help me with the following made up question.

Bob borrowed 200,000 (principal) from the bank. He is charged 0.0025% interest a month (0.03% per year) which is added to the total. After interest is taken every month he repays a certain amount (repayment).

Can anyone help me with the formula to figure out this:

A) How much does bob to have to pay back each month for it to be completed in 120 months (10 years)

I can do it for one month as shown below and can do it manually with the answer every time, but is there a formula to help me repeat the calculation x amount of times? I presume I can then re arrange them for both questions and solve.

(new)Principal = (Principal* [Interest+1]) - Repayment

b) Paying back 1000 a month, how long will it take for the 200000 to be paid.
 
ok, for part A I have now found this formulae:

monthly_payment= (monthly_interest * principal) / (1- ((1+ monthly_interest)**(-1*months)))

** is power of

If anyone can tell me where to go to start learning how this formulae was derived that would be amazing.

Also I am struggling to re write it and have months =
 
So I have found the formula:

monthly_payment = (monthly_interest * principal) / (1- ((1+ monthly_interest)**(-1*months)))
** being to the power of.

Can someone tell me where I should go to find out about this equation? Is it a polynomial? Should I start there or do I need to understand more basic maths? If anyone can recommend a good resource that would be great.

Also, I can't seem to re arrange it to solve months.
 
Hi,

I have not done maths in a while and was wondering if anyone can either explain or link me to the concepts to help me with the following made up question.

Bob borrowed 200,000 (principal) from the bank. He is charged 0.0025% interest a month (0.03% per year) which is added to the total. After interest is taken every month he repays a certain amount (repayment).

Can anyone help me with the formula to figure out this:

A) How much does bob to have to pay back each month for it to be completed in 120 months (10 years)

I can do it for one month as shown below and can do it manually with the answer every time, but is there a formula to help me repeat the calculation x amount of times? I presume I can then re arrange them for both questions and solve.

(new)Principal = (Principal* [Interest+1]) - Repayment

b) Paying back 1000 a month, how long will it take for the 200000 to be paid.
Do you want the formula or the derivation of the formula?
 
Bob borrowed 200,000 (principal) from the bank. He is charged 0.0025% interest a month (0.03% per year) which is added to the total. After interest is taken every month he repays a certain amount (repayment).
How much does bob to have to pay back each month for it to be completed in 120 months (10 years)

monthly_payment = (monthly_interest * principal) / (1- ((1+ monthly_interest)**(-1*months)))
** being to the power of.
^ = power of.
.0025% should be .25%, .03% should be 3%.

a = amount borrowed (200000)
n = number of payments (120)
r = monthly rate factor (.25 / 100 = .0025)
p = monthly payment (?)
Formula:
p = ar / [1 - 1/(1 + r)^n]

So payment = 200000*.0025 / [1 - 1/(1+.0025)^120] = ?

If you're making a "maths comeback", I suggest
you start with something easier.
 
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Hi,

I have not done maths in a while and was wondering if anyone can either explain or link me to the concepts to help me with the following made up question.

Bob borrowed 200,000 (principal) from the bank. He is charged 0.0025% interest a month (0.03% per year) which is added to the total. After interest is taken every month he repays a certain amount (repayment).

Can anyone help me with the formula to figure out this:

A) How much does bob to have to pay back each month for it to be completed in 120 months (10 years)

I can do it for one month as shown below and can do it manually with the answer every time, but is there a formula to help me repeat the calculation x amount of times? I presume I can then re arrange them for both questions and solve.

(new)Principal = (Principal* [Interest+1]) - Repayment

b) Paying back 1000 a month, how long will it take for the 200000 to be paid.
I think that your percentages are wrong (as Denis has suggested). 0.03 IS less than 1 regardless of the units. Now one percent is 1% which is more (much much more)than 0.03%. If the interest rate is three percent than we write 3%. For seven inches we write 7 inches, so for seven percent we write 7%. Just because three percent equals 0.03, we do NOT write three percent as 0.03%. The following is true: Three percent = 3% = 0.03 \(\displaystyle \neq\) 0.03%
 
Just because three percent equals 0.03, we do NOT write three percent as 0.03%. The following is true: Three percent = 3% = 0.03 \(\displaystyle \neq\) 0.03%
3% = 3 per hundred = 3/100 = .03 without the "%".
 
Bob borrowed 200,000 from the bank. Rate is 3% annual cpd. monthly.
b) Paying back 1000 a month, how long will it take for the 200000 to be paid.

a = amount borrowed (200000)
r = monthly rate factor (3/100/12 = .0025)
p = monthly payment (1000)
n = number of payments (?)

Start with payment formula:
p = ar / [1 - 1/(1 + r)^n]

Easier/shorter using u = 1 + r = 1.0025; then
p = ar / (1 - 1/u^n)

Now you need to solve above for n: how far can you get?
 
So I have found the formula:

monthly_payment = (monthly_interest * principal) / (1- ((1+ monthly_interest)**(-1*months)))
** being to the power of.

Can someone tell me where I should go to find out about this equation? Is it a polynomial? Should I start there or do I need to understand more basic maths? If anyone can recommend a good resource that would be great.

Also, I can't seem to re arrange it to solve months.
Does the following sentence make sense to you?

a + ar + ar2 + ar3 + .......+ ar(n-1) = a * (rn - 1)/(r - 1)

This is the core of the derivation of the formula above.
 
So I have found the formula:

monthly_payment = (monthly_interest * principal) / (1- ((1+ monthly_interest)**(-1*months)))
** being to the power of.

Can someone tell me where I should go to find out about this equation? Is it a polynomial? Should I start there or do I need to understand more basic maths? If anyone can recommend a good resource that would be great.

Also, I can't seem to re arrange it to solve months.
I am going to presume that the discussion about percents is over.

The relevant interest rate is the rate per compounding period. In your case, the payment period is months and so is 1/12 of the annual rate, but the formula works for any length of compounding period.

\(\displaystyle i = \text { interest rate for compounding period (not year).}\)

Now before proceeding to the meat of the derivation, let's deal with difference of powers.

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle x \ge 0 \le y \text { and integer } n > 1 \implies x^n - y^n = (x - y) * \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n x^{(n-j)} * y^{(j-1)} \right ).\)

The proof of that theorem is most easily done by weak induction, but it is probably easy to find proofs about difference of powers via google.

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle \therefore x \ne y \implies \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n x^{(n-j)} * y^{(j-1)} \right ) = \dfrac{x^n - y^n}{x - y}.\)

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle \therefore x \ne 1 = y \implies \dfrac{x^n - 1^n}{x - 1} = \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n x^{(n-j)} * 1^{(j-1)} \right ) \implies \)

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n x^{(n-j)} \right ) = \dfrac{x^n - 1}{x - 1}.\)

That lets us substitute a particular form of fraction for a particular form of sum.

\(\displaystyle i > 0 \implies 1 + i > 1 \implies 1 + i \ne 1 \implies \)

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right ) = \dfrac{(1 + i)^n - 1}{(1 + i) - 1} = \dfrac{(1 + i)^n - 1}{i}.\)

\(\displaystyle \therefore \dfrac{1}{\displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right )} = i * \dfrac{1}{(1 + i)^n - 1} \implies\)

\(\displaystyle \dfrac{(1 + i)^n}{\displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right )} = i * \dfrac{(1 + i)^n}{(1 + i)^n - 1} =\)

\(\displaystyle i * \dfrac{(1 + i)^n}{(1 + i)^n - 1} * \dfrac{(1 + i)^{-n}}{(1 + i)^{-n}} = i * \dfrac{1}{1 - (1 + i)^{-n}}.\)

\(\displaystyle \text {In short, } \dfrac{(1 + i)^n}{\displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^n (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right )} = \dfrac{i}{1 - (1 + i)^{-n}}.\)

What, you may wonder, is the point of all this algebra? Let's get back to the basic problem.

We have already defined i.

\(\displaystyle n = \text { number of payments.}\)

\(\displaystyle a = \text { amount of each payment.}\)

\(\displaystyle p_0 = \text { original principal.}\)

\(\displaystyle p_j = \text { principal due remaining after }j \text { payments, where } 1 \le j \le n.\)

The logic works on the basis of two obvious propositions:

\(\displaystyle p_n = 0 \text { and }p_j = p_{j-1} + ip_{j-1} - a = (1 + i)p_{j-1} - a.\)

Now let's do a bit of experimentation.

\(\displaystyle n = 1 \implies 0 = p_1 = (1 + i)p_0 - a \implies a = (1 + i) * p_0.\)

That is simple common sense. But notice that we can re-state it as follows:

\(\displaystyle n = 1 \implies a = (1 + i) * p_0 = p_0 * \dfrac{i(1 + i)^1}{i} * \dfrac{(1 + i)^{-1}}{(1 + i)^{-1}} \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{i * (1 + i)^{-n}} = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{\dfrac{i}{1 + i}} = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{\dfrac{1 + i - 1}{1 + i}} \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{1 - \dfrac{1}{1 + i}} = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{1 - (1 + i)^{-1}}.\)

Your formula works if n = 1. Let's try n = 2.

\(\displaystyle n = 2 \implies 0 = p_2 = (1 + i)p_1 - a \implies a = p_1 * (1 + i).\)

\(\displaystyle \text {But } p_1 = (1 + i)p_0 - a \implies a =(1 + i)\{(1 + i)p_0 - a) \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a(1 + i) + a = p_0(1 + i)^2 \implies \displaystyle a * \left ( \sum_{j=1}^2 (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right ) = p_0(1 + i)^2 \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a = p_0 * \dfrac{(1 + i)^2}{ \displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^2 (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right )} = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{1 - (1 + i)^{-2}}.\)

Again your formula works. Let's try n = 3.

\(\displaystyle n = 3 \implies 0 = p_3 = (1 + i)p_2 - a \implies a = p_2 * (1 + i).\)

\(\displaystyle \text {But } p_2 = (1 + i)p_1 - a \implies a =(1 + i)\{(1 + i)p_1 - a) \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a(1 + i) + a = (1 + i)^2p_1.\)

\(\displaystyle \text {But } p_1 = (1 + i)p_0 - a \implies a(1 + i) + a = (1 + i)^2 \{(1 + i)p_0 - a\} \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a(1 + i)^2 + a(1 + i) + a = p_0(1 + i)^3 \implies\)

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle a * \left ( \sum_{j=1}^3 (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right ) = p_0(1 + i)^3 \implies\)

\(\displaystyle a = p_0 * \dfrac{(1 + i)^3}{ \displaystyle \left ( \sum_{j=1}^3 (1 + i)^{(n-j)} \right )} = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{1 - (1 + i)^{-3}}.\)

In general, \(\displaystyle a = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{1 - (1 + i)^{-n}}.\)

To solve for n, you must know p0, i, and a and a > ip0.

\(\displaystyle a = p_0 * \dfrac{i}{1 - (1 + i)^{-n}} \implies 1 - (1 + i)^{-n} = \dfrac{ip_0}{a}\implies\)

\(\displaystyle (1 + i)^{-n} = 1 - \dfrac{ip_0}{a} = \dfrac{a - ip_0}{a} \implies -\ n * log(1 + i) = log(a - ip_0) - log(a) \implies \)

\(\displaystyle n * log(1 + i) = log(a) - log(a - ip_0) \implies n = \dfrac{log(a) - log(a - ip_0)}{log(1 + i)}.\)
 
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A Latex masterpiece Jeff!!

Let's take a short loan of $1000 over 4 months, rate 12% (1% per month);
required payment is $256.28; looks like this in bank statement format:
Code:
MONTH  PAYMENT  INTEREST  BALANCE
  0                       1000.00
  1    -256.28     10.00   753.72
  2    -256.28      7.54   504.98
  3    -256.28      5.05   253.75
  4    -256.28      2.53      .00
My favorite way of looking at it is:
1: pretend the $1000 loan is a savings account earning same rate (12%)
2: pretend the payments are deposited in another savings account, same rate
3: of course, both accounts must end with identical balances after 4 months:

So the accounts will looks like this:
Code:
MONTH  DEPOSIT  INTEREST  BALANCE   INTEREST  BALANCE
  0                           .00             1000.00
  1     256.28       .00   256.28      10.00  1010.00
  2     256.28      2.56   515.12      10.10  1020.10
  3     256.28      5.15   776.55      10.20  1030.30
  4     256.28      7.77  1040.60      10.30  1040.60
So we have:
256.28*1.01^3 + 256.28*1.01^2 + 256.28*1.01^1 + 256.28*1.01^0
= 256.28*(1.01^3 + 1.01^2 + 1.01 + 1)
= 1040.60
And we have:
1000*1.01^4 = 1040.60

So 256.28*(1.01^3 + 1.01^2 + 1.01 + 1) = 1000*1.01^4
Using p = 256.28, a = 1000, n = 4 and r = .01:
p*[(1+r)^(n-1) + (1+r)^(n-2) + (1+r) + 1] = a*(1+r)^n

So calculating the payment:
p = a*(1+r)^n / [(1+r)^(n-1) + (1+r)^(n-2) + (1+r) + 1]

BigD, hope that helps you "seeing" the derivation....
 
Thanks for all the answers, I feel some time has gone into these!

I kind of understand the derivation you put in the simpler form, but only very roughly. The (n-1),(n-2)...... terms make sense.
As you said, I think I need to go back to something easier before tackling this and its proof!
 
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