Need help: If x = sqrt(pq), y = 1/2(p+q), prove x < y, etc.

ceteras

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1) If x = sqrt(pq) and y = 1/2(p+q) prove that x < y

2) If (q-p)2 > 0 prove that (q3 - p3) / (pq2 - qp2) > 3

3) Two pipes running together can fill a tank in 15 minutes. The larger pipe can fill the tank 16 minutes sooner than the smaller pipe. Find the time in which each pipe alone can fill the tank.
 
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1) If x = sqrt(pq) and y = 1/2(p+q) prove that x < y

Hint: (√p+√q)2 = p + q + 2*√(p*q) ...... edited

2) If (q-p)2 > 0 prove that (q3 - p3) / (pq2 - qp2) > 3

Hint: (q - p)3 = q3 - p3 - 3pq2 + 3p2q

3) Two pipes running together can fill a tank in 15 minutes. The larger pipe can fill the tank 16 minutes sooner than the smaller pipe. Find the time in which each pipe alone can fill the tank.

Start with naming variables - e.g. -

L = time in minutes to fill the tank with large pipe

S = time in minutes to fill the tank with small pipe

What are your thoughts?

Please share your work with us ...even if you know it is wrong

If you are stuck at the beginning tell us and we'll start with the definitions.

You need to read the rules of this forum. Please read the post titled "
Read before Posting" at the following URL:

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What if p = q = -10?
What if p = q = 10?
What if p = 10, q = -10?

???

Probably I am missing something, well, I am still a student of math

Although not mentioned, I believe it is understood that p>0 and q>0. However, this should be made clear in the problem since, as you have pointed out, the inequalities are not always true if p and/or q are allowed to be other than positive.
 
Still

Although not mentioned, I believe it is understood that p>0 and q>0. However, this should be made clear in the problem since, as you have pointed out, the inequalities are not always true if p and/or q are allowed to be other than positive.

Consider x = y = 10, then x = 10 and y =10

I am thinking that one should be trying to prove x <= y by ultimately showing the 0 <= (x-y)^2 for x and y greater than or equal to zero.

Not trying to niggle, just double checking for myself and others. One can get quite frustrated trying to prove the false true as too often happens when you have copied a problem incorrectly for example.
 
Consider x = y = 10, then x = 10 and y =10

I am thinking that one should be trying to prove x <= y by ultimately showing the 0 <= (x-y)^2 for x and y greater than or equal to zero.

Not trying to niggle, just double checking for myself and others. One can get quite frustrated trying to prove the false true as too often happens when you have copied a problem incorrectly for example.

Correct - a "square" number [like (x-y)2] is always greater than or equal to zero.
 
Consider x = y = 10, then x = 10 and y =10

I am thinking that one should be trying to prove x <= y by ultimately showing the 0 <= (x-y)^2 for x and y greater than or equal to zero.

Not trying to niggle, just double checking for myself and others. One can get quite frustrated trying to prove the false true as too often happens when you have copied a problem incorrectly for example.

IMO, You are correct about the \(\displaystyle x\, \le\, \) instead of \(\displaystyle x\, \lt\, y\) in (1). For (2) I believe you need an additional q > p as (q-p)3 is positive/negative as q>p/q<p [the (q-p)2 > 0 basically just says they are not equal].
 
1) If x = sqrt(pq) and y = 1/2(p+q) prove that x < y

2) If (q-p)2 > 0 prove that (q3 - p3) / (pq2 - qp2) > 3

3) Two pipes running together can fill a tank in 15 minutes. The larger pipe can fill the tank 16 minutes sooner than the smaller pipe. Find the time in which each pipe alone can fill the tank.

1) We need to assume p ≥ 0 and q ≥ 0 and p \(\displaystyle \ne\) q. Then

(√p -√q)2 > 0

p + q - 2√(pq) > 0

(p + q) > 2√(pq)

1/2(p+q) > √(pq)

y > x → x < y
 
1) We need to assume p ≥ 0 and q ≥ 0 and p \(\displaystyle \ne\) q. Then

(√p -√q)2 > 0

p + q - 2√(pq) > 0

(p + q) > 2√(pq)

1/2(p+q) > √(pq)

y > x → x < y

So we can say that, if p and q are non-negative then \(\displaystyle \sqrt{pq}\, \le\, \frac{1}{2}(p\, +\, q)\) where equality happens only if p=q?
 
2) If (q-p)3 > 0 prove that (q3 - p3) / (pq2 - qp2) > 3



I think the problem was posted incorrectly

(q - p)3 > 0

q3 - p3 - 3pq2 + 3qp2 > 0

q3 - p3 > 3pq2 - 3qp2

q3 - p3 > 3(pq2 - qp2)

(q3 - p3)/(pq2 - qp2) > 3
 
Followup

Very interesting. If I may, this is a good and somewhat rare opportunity to ask a follow up question that is representative of similar situations that have confused me. I realize this is going beyond what the original assignment was probably considering and towards which responses were aimed.

Going through the exercise I come up with this conclusion:

(q3 - p3)/( pq2 - qp2) > 3 holds, but …

ONLY IF

[ (p >0 AND q>0 ) OR ( p<0 AND q<0) ] AND [ q > (qp)^(1/2) ]

AND

pq2 - qp2 <> 0

Question #1: Is this right so far and is the condition q > (qp)^(1/2) the best one can do, I mean since q is on both sides of the inequality.

Question #2: What about pq2 - qp2 <> 0, does one let it stand as it is or is there a better representation of the impermissible values of p and q? The confusing thing is that it is not that values of p and q are excluded (the domains narrowed) but that certain products of p and q are excluded, I think (?).

Sample derivation :

( pq2 - qp2) must be greater than 0 or the inequality sign is reversed.

( pq2 - qp2) > 0 => pq2 = qp2 => q2 = qp => q = (qp)1/2 providing p and q are both positive or negative.

also

( pq2 - qp2) <> 0 else you have a zero divisor.
 

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Very interesting. If I may, this is a good and somewhat rare opportunity to ask a follow up question that is representative of similar situations that have confused me. I realize this is going beyond what the original assignment was probably considering and towards which responses were aimed.

Going through the exercise I come up with this conclusion:

(q3 - p3)/( pq2 - qp2) > 3 holds, but …

ONLY IF

[ (p >0 AND q>0 ) OR ( p<0 AND q<0) ] AND [ q > (qp)^(1/2) ]

AND

pq2 - qp2 <> 0

Question #1: Is this right so far and is the condition q > (qp)^(1/2) the best one can do, I mean since q is on both sides of the inequality.

Question #2: What about pq2 - qp2 <> 0, does one let it stand as it is or is there a better representation of the impermissible values of p and q? The confusing thing is that it is not that values of p and q are excluded (the domains narrowed) but that certain products of p and q are excluded, I think (?).

Sample derivation :

( pq2 - qp2) must be greater than 0 or the inequality sign is reversed.

( pq2 - qp2) > 0 => pq2 = qp2 => q2 = qp => q = (qp)1/2 providing p and q are both positive or negative.

also

( pq2 - qp2) <> 0 else you have a zero divisor.

O.K. Maybe I can get it straight in my own head: (p-q)2>0 says p \(\displaystyle \ne\) q. We then have two remaining cases

1) q > p
Then (q-p)3 = q3 - p3 - 3 (pq2 - p2q) = q3 - p3 - 3 pq (q-p) > 0 or
q3 - p3 > 3 pq (q-p)
Since q>p (that is, q-p is positive), if pq is positive [that is, either both positive or both negative] then
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq\, (q\, -\, p)} = \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq^2\, - p^2q}\, \gt\, 3\)

2) q < p
Then (q-p)3 = q3 - p3 - 3 (pq2 - p2q) = q3 - p3 - 3 pq (q-p) < 0 or
q3 - p3 < 3 pq (q-p)
Since p>q (that is, q-p is negative), we have
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{q\, -\, p} > 3\, pq\)
So, if pq is positive [that is, either both positive or both negative] then
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq\, (q\, -\, p)} = \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq^2\, - p^2q}\, \gt\, 3\)

Thus, if pq is positive and p is not equal to q,
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq\, (q\, -\, p)} = \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq^2\, - p^2q}\, \gt\, 3\)
 
OK, but perhaps a minor thing.

O.K. Maybe I can get it straight in my own head: (p-q)2>0 says p \(\displaystyle \ne\) q. We then have two remaining cases

1) q > p
Then (q-p)3 = q3 - p3 - 3 (pq2 - p2q) = q3 - p3 - 3 pq (q-p) > 0 or
q3 - p3 > 3 pq (q-p)
Since q>p (that is, q-p is positive), if pq is positive [that is, either both positive or both negative] then
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq\, (q\, -\, p)} = \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq^2\, - p^2q}\, \gt\, 3\)

2) q < p
Then (q-p)3 = q3 - p3 - 3 (pq2 - p2q) = q3 - p3 - 3 pq (q-p) < 0 or
q3 - p3 < 3 pq (q-p)
Since p>q (that is, q-p is negative), we have
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{q\, -\, p} > 3\, pq\)
So, if pq is positive [that is, either both positive or both negative] then
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq\, (q\, -\, p)} = \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq^2\, - p^2q}\, \gt\, 3\)

Thus, if pq is positive and p is not equal to q,
\(\displaystyle \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq\, (q\, -\, p)} = \frac{q^3\, -\, p^3}{pq^2\, - p^2q}\, \gt\, 3\)

I follow your analysis, thank you. I failed to see that (pq^2 – qp^2) is easily factored to (pq)(q-p), nuts.

One thing though, in your first line you say "(p-q)2>0 says p [FONT=MathJax_Main]≠[/FONT] q". Fine but you started your analysis off with (q-p)3 >0, the corrected assumption.

Probably just a typo, however, if one is starts with (q-p)3 > 0, then, I believe, (q-p)3 > 0 implies both that q <> p, and ALSO q-p > 0 i.e q > p thus eliminating the need for part 2), I think.

 
I follow your analysis, thank you. I failed to see that (pq^2 – qp^2) is easily factored to (pq)(q-p), nuts.

One thing though, in your first line you say "(p-q)2>0 says p [FONT=MathJax_Main]≠[/FONT] q". Fine but you started your analysis off with (q-p)3 >0, the corrected assumption.

Probably just a typo, however, if one is starts with (q-p)3 > 0, then, I believe, (q-p)3 > 0 implies both that q <> p, and ALSO q-p > 0 i.e q > p thus eliminating the need for part 2), I think.

Apparently you didn't follow my analysis. I didn't start off my analysis with (q-p)3>0. I started my analysis of the remaining two cases with the case of q>p. Fundamental to that proof is that for any two real numbers p and q there are three mutually exclusive possibilities:
(1) p = q.
(2) q > p.
(3) q < p.

The (p-q)2 > 0 eliminates (1). (2) is the first case analyzed above. (3) is the second case analyzed above. Having analyzed all possible cases, the conclusion drawn was the result of that analysis.
 
Apparently you didn't follow my analysis. I didn't start off my analysis with (q-p)3>0. I started my analysis of the remaining two cases with the case of q>p. Fundamental to that proof is that for any two real numbers p and q there are three mutually exclusive possibilities:
(1) p = q.
(2) q > p.
(3) q < p.

The (p-q)2 > 0 eliminates (1). (2) is the first case analyzed above. (3) is the second case analyzed above. Having analyzed all possible cases, the conclusion drawn was the result of that analysis.

eq0: (q-p)^3 > 0 => q <> 0, and q > p

eq1: eq1: (q-p)^2 => q <> 0

eq2: (q^3-p^3)/(pq^2-p^2q) > 3

OK, I didn’t follow your analysis after all. I do appreciate your help. My questions are not meant to be personally challenging. I did work with your response for quite some time before trimming things down to what I wrote. I don’t blame you if you become weary, correspondence like this takes much more effort than talking face to face and writing on a blackboard.

I will explain what I think the confusion was/is only because I believe it is and has been a significant educational opportunity beyond the original question asked.

The original question begin as an “If eq1 then show eq2 is a consequence” type of question. That this is not possible, i.e. using eq1 to prove e2, was shown by Subhotosh Khan by demonstrating that eq2 can be developed from eq0 not eq1. That this is the case is most clearly seen by working his case backwards to show that the conclusion is rooted in the revised premise.

Then I came along and accepted Subhotosh Khan’s new premise and analysis and wondered how the domains of p and q would need to be necessarily limited to accompany his development of eq2 from eq0. Unfortunately I missed the obvious factoring that (pq^2-p^2q) = pq(q-p), and was puzzled by how one would state the conditions on the domain of eq2.

The significant point here is that then I was no longer asking the original question, i.e not how to develop eq2 from the revised premise eq1, but rather given eq2, how to define its domain in light of it’s own form and that of the additional condition eq0.

At this point, you, Ishuda went back to the original equations eq1 and eq2 and demonstrated how one could prove the domain of eq1/eq2 was necessarily stated by p<> q and that p and q must both be positive or both negative.

The unfortunate thing for the less experienced reader (like me) was that you seemed to start off with the revised premise that the Subhotosh Khan had introduced, eq0. What was not obvious was that you were not borrowing his new premise but was recognizing that the author of the problem had almost certainly cooked up the problem by starting with the binomial expansion of (q-p)^3.

So this was the significant education point for me, an insight into seeing see one can cook up problems like this, to wit:

Take (p-q)^3 and use binomial expansion to write the identity:

eqA1: (p-q)^3 = q^3 – 3pq^2 + 3p^2q –p^2

Apply the same condition to each side of the equality, in this case:

eqA2: (p-q)^3 > 3

eqA3: q^3 – 3pq^2 + 3p^2q –p^2 > 3

disguise eqA3’s origin by twisting it around using the usual algebraic steps, to create, in this case:

eqA4: (q^3 – p^3)/((pq^2-qP^3) > 3

then use eqA2 as a premise to show that it implies eqA4 which it must since eqA4 is implied by eqA3, and eqA3 is implied by eqA2 since eqA1 shows that the LHS of each, eqA2 and eqA3, are identities of one another. Of course in the process of creating some eqA4 sort of disguise there is the likelihood of changing the domain.

Perhaps I still do not have everything straight, who knows, but I am sure that I have learned a good deal with wrestling with the details of this problem. Thanks again.
 
eq0: (q-p)^3 > 0 => q <> 0, and q > p

eq1: eq1: (q-p)^2 => q <> 0

eq2: (q^3-p^3)/(pq^2-p^2q) > 3

OK, I didn’t follow your analysis after all. I do appreciate your help. My questions are not meant to be personally challenging. I did work with your response for quite some time before trimming things down to what I wrote. I don’t blame you if you become weary, correspondence like this takes much more effort than talking face to face and writing on a blackboard.

I will explain what I think the confusion was/is only because I believe it is and has been a significant educational opportunity beyond the original question asked.

The original question begin as an “If eq1 then show eq2 is a consequence” type of question. That this is not possible, i.e. using eq1 to prove e2, was shown by Subhotosh Khan by demonstrating that eq2 can be developed from eq0 not eq1. That this is the case is most clearly seen by working his case backwards to show that the conclusion is rooted in the revised premise.

Then I came along and accepted Subhotosh Khan’s new premise and analysis and wondered how the domains of p and q would need to be necessarily limited to accompany his development of eq2 from eq0. Unfortunately I missed the obvious factoring that (pq^2-p^2q) = pq(q-p), and was puzzled by how one would state the conditions on the domain of eq2.

The significant point here is that then I was no longer asking the original question, i.e not how to develop eq2 from the revised premise eq1, but rather given eq2, how to define its domain in light of it’s own form and that of the additional condition eq0.

At this point, you, Ishuda went back to the original equations eq1 and eq2 and demonstrated how one could prove the domain of eq1/eq2 was necessarily stated by p<> q and that p and q must both be positive or both negative.

The unfortunate thing for the less experienced reader (like me) was that you seemed to start off with the revised premise that the Subhotosh Khan had introduced, eq0. What was not obvious was that you were not borrowing his new premise but was recognizing that the author of the problem had almost certainly cooked up the problem by starting with the binomial expansion of (q-p)^3.

So this was the significant education point for me, an insight into seeing see one can cook up problems like this, to wit:

Take (p-q)^3 and use binomial expansion to write the identity:

eqA1: (p-q)^3 = q^3 – 3pq^2 + 3p^2q –p^2

Apply the same condition to each side of the equality, in this case:

eqA2: (p-q)^3 > 3

eqA3: q^3 – 3pq^2 + 3p^2q –p^2 > 3

disguise eqA3’s origin by twisting it around using the usual algebraic steps, to create, in this case:

eqA4: (q^3 – p^3)/((pq^2-qP^3) > 3

then use eqA2 as a premise to show that it implies eqA4 which it must since eqA4 is implied by eqA3, and eqA3 is implied by eqA2 since eqA1 shows that the LHS of each, eqA2 and eqA3, are identities of one another. Of course in the process of creating some eqA4 sort of disguise there is the likelihood of changing the domain.

Perhaps I still do not have everything straight, who knows, but I am sure that I have learned a good deal with wrestling with the details of this problem. Thanks again.

I'm glad you have learned something - that's the fun part for me and I hope you enjoy it.
 
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