Electron Discussion

[Otis]

… The idea that an electron has to take up some kind of space/volume is incorrect. It is a point particle and thus does not take up any space …

This is interesting. An electron cloud takes up space, yet the individual electrons do not. Also, an electron has mass.

If we use the definition that says matter is anything that has mass and takes up space, then an electron is not matter.

Are protons and neutrons matter?

 

[topsquark]

This is interesting. An electron cloud takes up space, yet the individual electrons do not. Also, an electron has mass.

If we use the definition that says matter is anything that has mass and takes up space, then an electron is not matter.

Are protons and neutrons matter?

Well, as it would stand according to current theory all point particles are black holes. We usually gloss over that one!

As to electron clouds remember that the cloud isn't made of actual electrons, it is a probability distribution which gives the probability of an electron being some point or energy or angular momentum, etc. It does not exist in "real" space.

-Dan

 

[Otis]

… as it would stand according to current theory …

I've been reading up on chemistry; perhaps its perspective differs from physics, in some finer details?

… remember that the cloud isn't made of actual electrons …

Maybe I've misunderstood. According to what I've read, if an atom owns an electron, then the electron's potential positions (in whatever form it takes) define a region somewhere around the nucleus. The region has a specific shape and takes up space. Chemists call these regions orbitals, and the aggregate electron orbitals for a specific atom is what I'm thinking of, when I say 'cloud'.

I'm still studying the subject; there's a lot I don't know. ?
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[topsquark]

Chemistry wouldn't matter here. If an object has all its mass contained inside its Schwarzchild radius ( 2GM/c^2) then it is, by definition a black hole. If it's a point particle it has to be inside its Schwarzchild radius.

Let's talk position then. Until observed no particle exists definitely at any point. Once observed the electron's wavefunction will "collapse" (I don't like that term) at a specific point. Where that point is depends on factors such as what orbital the electron is in. I can't draw the pretty pictures but the possible locations of an electron can take spheres or bell-like shapes. (Look at the the hydrogen wavefunctions on the right here.) The electron shows up at a point around the nucleus but the electron is always sitting somewhere within the probability cloud for that particular value of n ( and l, p, d, etc.). The probability distribution is what is called the cloud... two electrons in different orbitals could show us right next to each other but have different quantum numbers.

-Dan