# Having a problem no math genius

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Hi

Im no math genius. Its not in my brain

Im havng a disusion wi some guys on a pokerforum

In the video from1.5 the difference of using a RNG and a deck of cards is explained.

Onlne poker does not use a deck, deal not from top no burn cards no cut.
They just reach in a stream of data

I can only imagine that there has to be a significant difference in the outcome/statistics.

How to prove it?
Hope you guy's/girls can shed some light.

Thanks

#### stapel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Im no math genius. Its not in my brain

Im havng a disusion wi some guys on a pokerforum

In the video from1.5 the difference of using a RNG and a deck of cards is explained.

Onlne poker does not use a deck, deal not from top no burn cards no cut.
They just reach in a stream of data

I can only imagine that there has to be a significant difference in the outcome/statistics.

How to prove it?
"How to prove" what, precisely? What is an "RNG"?

Please note: This is a tutoring forum, where volunteers give of their time to help struggling students. If you are looking into this casually with no statistical background, it will not be possible to provide an answer, since we'd first have to try to teach a few weeks or months of classes, which obviously isn't reasonable. You might want to try Googling whatever is your question. On the other hand, if this is an actual mathematical question, please reply with specifics, along with a clear listing of your thoughts and efforts so far, so we can provide you with hints and suggestions to get you going again.

Thank you!

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
"How to prove" what, precisely? What is an "RNG"?

Please note: This is a tutoring forum, where volunteers give of their time to help struggling students. If you are looking into this casually with no statistical background, it will not be possible to provide an answer, since we'd first have to try to teach a few weeks or months of classes, which obviously isn't reasonable. You might want to try Googling whatever is your question. On the other hand, if this is an actual mathematical question, please reply with specifics, along with a clear listing of your thoughts and efforts so far, so we can provide you with hints and suggestions to get you going again.

Thank you!
Im sorry.Did not realize this forum is for tutoring. A RNG is a random number generator.

I did think that the videolink I provided from 1.50 wouldt explain my question.

But I understand that this is not the way you guy's formulate a problem/question.

Sorry again, I now understand.

#### mmm4444bot

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I can only imagine that there has to be a significant difference in the outcome/statistics.
Can you quantify what you're thinking by "significant".

I watched the video, but I didn't study it.

Some thoughts:

As nobody can see the cards being used in their system, do the cut and burn options really make any difference (other than "peace of mind" or confidence that all is right, in the players' mind)?

Yes, it's true that, with a real deck of cards, the card order to be dealt is set prior to dealing. A random number generator doesn't do this, but the software obviously checks each random number to ensure that it has not already been dealt. In other words, the random number generator will be throwing away many randomly-generated numbers because it already dealt those. In the end, the RNG system has dealt a particular set of cards in a particular order. Who's to say that a dealer shuffling the deck would not end up with cards in the same order as the RNG system.

In a RNG system, what's different in the software (algorithm for dealing hands) between a single-player game and a multi-player game. Are you thinking about both situations or only one of them?

In tournament poker, how many times is a dealer allowed to shuffle the deck. As much as they like? That is, what exactly do the rules say about what constitutes a "fair, shuffled deck"?

I'm not convinced, by what I saw in the video, that the significance between the two systems discussed is "big".

Cheers :cool:

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Can you quantify what you're thinking by "significant".

I watched the video, but I didn't study it.

Some thoughts:

As nobody can see the cards being used in their system, do the cut and burn options really make any difference (other than "peace of mind" or confidence that all is right, in the players' mind)?

Yes, it's true that, with a real deck of cards, the card order to be dealt is set prior to dealing. A random number generator doesn't do this, but the software obviously checks each random number to ensure that it has not already been dealt. In other words, the random number generator will be throwing away many randomly-generated numbers because it already dealt those. In the end, the RNG system has dealt a particular set of cards in a particular order. Who's to say that a dealer shuffling the deck would not end up with cards in the same order as the RNG system.

In a RNG system, what's different in the software (algorithm for dealing hands) between a single-player game and a multi-player game. Are you thinking about both situations or only one of them?

In tournament poker, how many times is a dealer allowed to shuffle the deck. As much as they like? That is, what exactly do the rules say about what constitutes a "fair, shuffled deck"?

I'm not convinced, by what I saw in the video, that the significance between the two systems discussed is "big".

Cheers :cool:
Significant seems to be for me that 3 cards will not be in play. Thats one thing.

Cheers

#### mmm4444bot

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Significant seems to be for me that 3 cards will not be in play.
Hmmm. Seems like you might be talking about something other than potential burn cards, here. I need to watch that video again, more carefully.

#### mmm4444bot

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I watched the video again, and took some notes. I watched a second video, in which Gene Gioia explains his system. I also read information at realdealpoker.com.

What are the "three cards" that you say are not in play?

Regarding burn cards, there's a printed statement in the video you referenced [4:22] that reads, "These burn cards are taken from the deck the same way they are in a real game." Yet, their web site states that "RealDealPoker software burns a card …" (emphasis mine).

Tell me, if I'm wrong. In a real poker room, the dealer burns a card (or cards) from the top of a shuffled deck. These cards are placed face-down on the table and are out of play. When using Gioia's Random Card Generator (RCG), the machine creates a digitized list of the order of all 52 shuffled cards. By stating that it's the software that burns the cards, I'm guessing that they mean the first card(s) are removed from the beginning of the digitized list. Is this how you understand it?

Regarding the use of random-number generators (RNG) to choose the cards dealt, someone in the video states [3:10], "This effectively means the entire deck is always in play, which has a profound impact on the game play and the odds." Can you say what you think the meaning is for the phrase, "the entire deck is always in play"? I'm not sure I understand or agree.

Here are two points that seem pertinent.

(1) In the other video I watched (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndit25Cgbk0), Gene Gioia claims that Robert Hannun, Professor of Risk Analysis & Gaming at the University of Denver, subjected spreadsheet data from Gioia's system to several tests for non-randomness. Analyzing hundreds of deals from two decks, Hannun was unable to find any evidence of non-randomness. Dr. Hannun is a recognized authority in gaming mathematics, is well-published, regularly consults with casinos and game developers, and has served as an expert witness on the mathematics of gambling and poker in both criminal and civil cases. If he determined that Gioia's RCG is random, that would be good enough for me. Gioia says (in the video) that a copy of Hannun's report is available at realdealpoker.com, but I could not find it. Why is Hannun's determination important? Because of (2).

(2) Random number generators cannot produce numbers that are truly picked at random. Volumes of material have been written about this. Google keywords like "how random are random-number generators". You'll find interesting articles, like this one, which also describes TRNG (truly-random number generators).

I don't play on-line games, so I was a bit surprised to learn that on-line games involving real money are still very susceptible to bots posing as players. It seems like the RCG would be a good defense for this, as a bot would be unable to cut the deck (requires using a mouse), thus exposing itself. Also, the fact that RCG produces a video record of each shuffled deck's card order (for auditing purposes) is what I think is needed, where real money is involved. One cannot file claims against an RNG.

I'm interested to see your answers, before thinking more about RNG vs RCG in on-line poker. :cool:

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Hmmm. Seems like you might be talking about something other than potential burn cards, here. I need to watch that video again, more carefully.

No only the 3 burn cards.

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Before the flop before the turn and before the river a card is burned

#### mmm4444bot

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Okay, I'm not familiar with that form of poker.

Yes, the probabilities will change, when any card is removed from the deck during play. So, if you're playing on-line poker with RCG and burn cards are being used, the odds will be different than they would be with RNG (no burn cards).

What else are you wondering about?

I would think that the odds might differ even going from one RNG site to another, based on the fact there are different types of random number generators. If there's a notable difference in randomness between RNG and RCG, then switching from one to the other might change the odds, but it would be hard to quantify that. I'd still like to see that professor's report.

PS: Have you ever seen any statement at an on-line site referring to a specific name or type of RNG in use? Just curious, if they mention RNG in their disclaimers.

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Okay, I'm not familiar with that form of poker.

Yes, the probabilities will change, when any card is removed from the deck during play. So, if you're playing on-line poker with RCG and burn cards are being used, the odds will be different than they would be with RNG (no burn cards).

What else are you wondering about?

I would think that the odds might differ even going from one RNG site to another, based on the fact there are different types of random number generators. If there's a notable difference in randomness between RNG and RCG, then switching from one to the other might change the odds, but it would be hard to quantify that. I'd still like to see that professor's report.

PS: Have you ever seen any statement at an on-line site referring to a specific name or type of RNG in use? Just curious, if they mention RNG in their disclaimers.
Im having a discussion with pokerstars. This is one of the things they told me about the rng
http://www.idquantique.com/random-number-generation/

Ps: its about texas holdem no limit poker

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#### mmm4444bot

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Im having a discussion with pokerstars. This is one of the things they told me about the rng
http://www.idquantique.com/random-number-generation/

Ps: its about texas holdem no limit poker
Yes, that site discusses TRNG.

I did a brief search on odds for Texas Holdem. Seems like most comments disagree with me, regarding whether the probabilities change when burn cards are used.

A majority of folks say that the probabilities are calculated based on unknown cards only. As burn cards are not revealed, they do not affect the probabilities. One person gave this example:

If you have a fair, shuffled deck, what is the probability that the top card is the Ace of Spades? It's 1 in 52. Now burn the top three cards. What is the probability that the top card is the Ace of Spades? It's still 1 in 52 because there are still 52 unknown cards. The fact that three of the unknown cards are on table makes no difference.

There is also discussion about the effect of players folding. The consensus seems to be that folding does change the probabilities, but that it's very hard to model (i.e., quantify).

Maybe you'll find this site interesting.

Based on what I've seen so far, I'm leaning toward saying that there won't be a quantifiable difference between the two versions of on-line play (RNG vs RCG), with or without burn cards, as long as the site using RNG is truly random.

Yet, I've already changed my mind once …

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Yes, that site discusses TRNG.

I did a brief search on odds for Texas Holdem. Seems like most comments disagree with me, regarding whether the probabilities change when burn cards are used.

A majority of folks say that the probabilities are calculated based on unknown cards only. As burn cards are not revealed, they do not affect the probabilities. One person gave this example:

If you have a fair, shuffled deck, what is the probability that the top card is the Ace of Spades? It's 1 in 52. Now burn the top three cards. What is the probability that the top card is the Ace of Spades? It's still 1 in 52 because there are still 52 unknown cards. The fact that three of the unknown cards are on table makes no difference.

There is also discussion about the effect of players folding. The consensus seems to be that folding does change the probabilities, but that it's very hard to model (i.e., quantify).

Maybe you'll find this site interesting.

Based on what I've seen so far, I'm leaning toward saying that there won't be a quantifiable difference between the two versions of on-line play (RNG vs RCG), with or without burn cards, as long as the site using RNG is truly random.

Yet, I've already changed my mind once …
Lol, you are not the only one who changed his mind once.

To most it seems that in theory it does not matter (burned cards). I disagree. (they base this upon odds calculater theory.)

So do a lot of real life poker players. They notice a significant difference compared to online poker. For some professionals that was the reason to stop with online poker.

Thanks so far for your thoughts and investigations.

#### Teragabaga

##### New member
Is this comparission wrong/right?
There is a lottery with 52 numbers(balls) You can pick 6 numbers. Before the draw 3 of the 52 numbers(balls) are removed.

#### mmm4444bot

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Is this comparission wrong/right?
There is a lottery with 52 numbers(balls) You can pick 6 numbers. Before the draw 3 of the 52 numbers(balls) are removed.
Yes, I would say that it's a similar comparison. You have no way of knowing which numbers will be "burned". You also don't know anything about any of the other numbers that eventually are not picked.

If it's a random process, each of the 52 numbers has an equal chance to end up in the final six.

Say, instead, 46 balls are removed randomly, one by one, with the remaining six as winners. Same odds. :cool: