Posting Worked Solutions - Comments Please

[topsquark]

I'm okay with a seven-day threshold for posting 'the answer', too.

Are there any objections?



[imath]\;[/imath]

I guess I'm okay with this.

-Dan

 

[Deleted member 4993]

I'd asked about the answer only, not a set of steps.



I'm okay with a seven-day threshold for posting 'the answer', too.

Are there any objections?



[imath]\;[/imath]

I'll cast my vote in 7 days - or is it 30 days.....

 

[Otis]

I'll cast my vote in 7 days - or is it 30 days…

Personally, I think sooner is better than later.

?

[imath]\;[/imath]

 

[Deleted member 4993]

I guess I'm okay with this.

-Dan

Okay, the majority is in favor of

After 4 days we can post the answer and​

​

After 7 days we can post the steps and the answer.​

If I had my druthers, I am in favor of posting full-solution of a similar (but not the same) problem after 7 days.

 

[mmm4444bot]

After 4 days we can post the answer and​

​

After 7 days we can post the steps and the answer.​

I'm okay with the above. When you say, "After 4 days", you mean after the OP's most recent post, yes? That is, if the OP does not respond to tutoring at all, the answer may be posted on the fourth day with respect to the op timestamp. However, if the OP responds appropriately before the fourth day (i.e., shows some effort or asks an additional question), then we reply and the four-day timer starts again. The exercise answer may be posted four days after the OP's most recent post.

With some exercises (I'm thinking several steps), it might be nice if another tutor confirms a posted answer. Or, if another tutor disagrees with a posted answer, they could post what they think is the correct answer. But, I would like to see three days pass without discussing steps publicly. (If they desire, the tutors involved may communicate privately until an additional three days has passed since the OP's most recent post (for a total of seven days), at which time worked steps may be posted.

In other words, if the OP does not respond after the answer is posted, then a worked solution and open discussion may be posted three days after the first answer-post timestamp.

I'm okay letting tutors decide case-by-case whether they want to post steps for a similar exercise versus for the original exercise. If worked steps are posted, it's okay with me if another tutor posts an alternate set of steps. I'm also okay if a similar exercise is worked by one tutor, and then a second tutor posts a different method using the original exercise.

I think it's a good start, to try. We can always tweak things, later.

?

[imath]\;[/imath]

 

[Cubist]

Seems like a great start for a set of helper guidelines

...If they desire, the tutors involved may communicate privately...

Using private messaging seems a bit awkward because
- we'd have to view two separate threads for every question, one private and one public. It would be very easy to loose track and this would make tutoring here less fun/ less appealing IMO
- we wouldn't know the set of helpers who would potentially be interested in a particular question when starting the private thread (only those that have already responded in the original thread)

I think it would be easier if tutors could communicate within the original thread in a way that the students aren't able to see. I'm thinking along the lines of adding a custom BB code, similar to [SPOILER], that only allows helpers to reveal the text. Something like...

[TUTOR]I get 123 for the answer, do the other tutors agree?[/TUTOR]

However, I suspect that this isn't possible due to the time and cost it would take to implement such a feature.

Perhaps we could achieve the same effect by agreeing to use some kind of 3rd party encryption tool that only the helpers know about. (Although I've had a look and I couldn't see anything quick/ simple enough to make it viable)

Any other ideas? Erhapspay igpay atinlay?

 

[JeffM]

I am not worried about the difficulties of private messages. Just send any private message about how and when to answer to every helper participating in the thread.

I like mmm’s summarization with one exception.

I continue to believe that people other than students have problems in mathematics and that giving answers quickly is the decent thing to do. If someone is trying to plan supper, an answer delivered after four days is not help. It seldom is hard to distinguish the usually messy and detailed problems that arise in actuality from the patently artificial ones created for teaching purposes.

I note as well mmm’s reference to creating and showing the solution to similar problems. I think it was stapel who used to do that. I see no reason to object to that at any point in the process. Even text books show worked examples.

 

[topsquark]

I'm okay with this for the most part, though I'm not going to be posting any full solutions unless I feel that that OP is going to need them (in my experience some problems just can't be done with the Socratic method), but in any case now that this discussion is public what is going to stop someone from posting a problem and simply waiting for 4 days?

-Dan

 

[Deleted member 4993]

I'm okay with the above. When you say, "After 4 days", you mean after the OP's most recent post, yes? That is, if the OP does not respond to tutoring at all, the answer may be posted on the fourth day with respect to the op timestamp. However, if the OP responds appropriately before the fourth day (i.e., shows some effort or asks an additional question), then we reply and the four-day timer starts again. The exercise answer may be posted four days after the OP's most recent post.

With some exercises (I'm thinking several steps), it might be nice if another tutor confirms a posted answer. Or, if another tutor disagrees with a posted answer, they could post what they think is the correct answer. But, I would like to see three days pass without discussing steps publicly. (If they desire, the tutors involved may communicate privately until an additional three days has passed since the OP's most recent post (for a total of seven days), at which time worked steps may be posted.

In other words, if the OP does not respond after the answer is posted, then a worked solution and open discussion may be posted three days after the first answer-post timestamp.

I'm okay letting tutors decide case-by-case whether they want to post steps for a similar exercise versus for the original exercise. If worked steps are posted, it's okay with me if another tutor posts an alternate set of steps. I'm also okay if a similar exercise is worked by one tutor, and then a second tutor posts a different method using the original exercise.

I think it's a good start, to try. We can always tweak things, later.

?

[imath]\;[/imath]

I agree - 4 days for answer (may be cryptic like pka) and 7 days for detailed xeroxable steps - with all the caveats mentioned.

Mark (@mmm4444bot ) can you please include this in the "read before posting" - so that some of our new tutors/helpers are made aware of these stipulations.

 

[Cubist]

I am not worried about the difficulties of private messages. Just send any private message about how and when to answer to every helper participating in the thread.

I'm just trying to be realistic. The PM facility has always been available and is very seldom used. I see no particular reason why tutors will start using it now (in order to agree on the best way to help a particular student). I suspect that the usual ratchet release of information will always continue unless something easier is put in place, as tutors one by one provide extra info within the question thread itself. But maybe this is not viewed as a bad thing (I'm happy if that's the system).

 

[Deleted member 4993]

If someone is trying to plan supper, an answer delivered after four days is not help

True but if that someone does not give you any hint about - what type of cooking facility they do have (electric/gas oven, hot plate or coal fired samovar) and what type of food (spicy, aromatic, colorful, bland) -or their culinary skill-level, etc., then how are you going to help them?

 

[JeffM]

True but if that someone does not give you any hint about - what type of cooking facility they do have (electric/gas oven, hot plate or coal fired samovar) and what type of food (spicy, aromatic, colorful, bland) -or their culinary skill-level, etc., then how are you going to help them?

Actually Subhotosh, that is one of the major clues. Real life problems come with all kinds of extraneous detail because those asking do not know what details are important and are immersed in a problem rich with specifics.

 

[Deleted member 4993]

Actually Subhotosh, that is one of the major clues. Real life problems come with all kinds of extraneous detail because those asking do not know what details are important and are immersed in a problem rich with specifics.

And that is why we must not - cannot - instruct the person to prepare "Mughlai Korma" without even knowing whether the term "Korma" makes any sense to that person.

In case of ignorance, we may have to start with "preparation" of spice mixture and even the address of "spice mahal".

I continue to believe that people other than students have problems in mathematics and that giving answers quickly is the decent thing to do.

you state:

that giving answers quickly is the decent thing to do. If someone is trying to plan supper, an answer delivered after four days is not help

But most of the time "giving answers" in first/second response would be similar to "providing a meal plan" without making sure that the person will not "over-spice" the meal that will burn going in and coming out.

But I think "helping student to finish HW" is very different from Helping to plan a meal". In case HW, most of our tutors (including you) wait for back-and-forth discussions. That is the whole point. In the absence of back-and-forth discussions, current guideline is wait for 4 days before an answer is provided and wait for 7 days before a step-by-step instruction is provided. Point is that these are guidelines and not commandments.

Most of the time, objection comes up when the OP just slaps on a problem (most of the time re-interpreted ) and then we ask several questions, and it does not get answered. Those OPs were not very hungry.

 

[Steven G]

I realize that I do have some concerns.
If another student has the same question and doesn't know how to solve it, then they can come to this forum and get the answer without learning anything.
Now this creates a huge problem with this forum as our goal here is to help students arrive at the correct answer. The huge problem is that other students can simply copy down the solution that we helped a student arrive at. Sure they need to read through the entire post and might learn something, which is good. Another thing is that many times I have noticed helpers, including myself, asking students who claim that they solved their problem to please post their solutions for others to see. Is this a good idea?

There are many posted problems that the tutors are interested in. I think that it is fair for the tutors after a week to discuss these problems on the forum. It isn't many problems and the tutors need a little break from time to time to have fun with a problem here and there. It keeps the tutors from burning out too quickly.

 

[JeffM]

And that is why we must not - cannot - instruct the person to prepare "Mughlai Korma" without even knowing whether the term "Korma" makes any sense to that person.

In case of ignorance, we may have to start with "preparation" of spice mixture and even the address of "spice mahal".

you state:


But most of the time "giving answers" in first/second response would be similar to "providing a meal plan" without making sure that the person will not "over-spice" the meal that will burn going in and coming out.

But I think "helping student to finish HW" is very different from Helping to plan a meal". In case HW, most of our tutors (including you) wait for back-and-forth discussions. That is the whole point. In the absence of back-and-forth discussions, current guideline is wait for 4 days before an answer is provided and wait for 7 days before a step-by-step instruction is provided. Point is that these are guidelines and not commandments.

Most of the time, objection comes up when the OP just slaps on a problem (most of the time re-interpreted ) and then we ask several questions, and it does not get answered. Those OPs were not very hungry.

Oh Khan of Khans

I hear and shall obey: guidelines are not commandments.

I am all in favor of these guidelines for students, and I trust the helpers here to navigate any gray areas with sense and delicacy.

 

[mmm4444bot]

There seems to be some confusion.

I'm not advocating for thread discussions via private messaging. I'd previously mentioned private messaging only in the context of a differing-answers discussion.

My statements are that, IF other tutors disagree with a posted answer, then they may post their answer as well. In such a case, I would rather not see discussions between authors of differing answers in the thread during the three-day period following the first-posted answer's timestamp. (The OP ought to have up to three days after the first posted answer to respond with questions about steps.) IF any of the tutors who've posted different answers desire, they may discuss their respective answers privately during those three days. They certainly don't have to!

As long as an OP is responding, the entire discussion between OP and tutors ought to be public.

Remember, also. Each time an OP posts, the respective timer restarts. That is, another four days must pass from the OP's most-recent post before posting an answer, and after an answer is posted (and the student is asking about it) another three days must pass from the OP's most-recent post before posting a worked solution.

people other than students have problems in mathematics … giving answers quickly is the decent thing to do.

Agree, when it's obvious. If such a person explains why they're asking and it's clear that they're not a student, then a worked solution and answer may be posted at any time. Frequently, I can't determine whether the OP is a student or not. They might be retired and doing math for recreation. They might need an answer for work or personal project. They don't say! This is why the guidelines and summary each say up front:

We don't do your homework … Unless you say otherwise, we will treat you like a student working on a school assignment who is stuck at one of the steps.

If a tutor is unsure about whether the exercise is a school assignment, then they ought to ask the OP directly before posting an answer or worked solution. If a tutor asks, the OP gets four days from the op timestamp to state whether or not they are a student.

creating and showing [a worked] solution to [an exercise similar to the op] … I see no reason to object to that at any point

Are you advocating for allowing tutors to post a worked solution to an alternate exercise immediately?

what is going to stop someone from posting a problem and simply waiting for 4 days?

Nothing. Is that an issue that we ought to discuss? (I seem to recall somebody saying that cheaters will always find a way to cheat.)

can you please include this in the "read before posting" - so that some of our new tutors/helpers are made aware of these stipulations

Yes, as soon as I know what we've all agreed (for the time being) to accept.

I see no particular reason why tutors will start using [private messaging] now (in order to agree on the best way to help a particular student).

I don't, either. However, if a member would like to discuss how to best help anyone, then they ought to start their own thread on the Odds & Ends board, or a private discussion. Also, discussions amongst tutors about personal preferences or opinions are generally off-topic in student threads.

If another student has the same question … they can come to this forum and get the answer without learning

True. Is that an issue? Personally, I feel that instructors who don't want students viewing Internet solutions to an exercise they assign have a responsibility to assign exercise statement that are not found by searching the Internet. Solutions to textbook exercises might appear in a Solutions Manual. Ought such manuals be outlawed, to prevent cheating? (That's rhetorical, Steven, heh.) My concern is that some good students may be penalized because of bad behavior by a minority. I leave such cheaters to their destiny!!

asking students who claim that they solved their problem to please post their solutions for others to see. Is this a good idea?

Absolutely! Any substantive claims by a student are fair game. The best students already provide such information in their op; they're following the guidelines, and sharing.

?

[imath]\;[/imath]

 

[mmm4444bot]

Some members feel the answer ought to be posted right away. Some members (including the site's owner) have no issue with posting a worked solution as the first response. Some members do not want to see any answers or worked solutions posted, unless the student first posts theirs. I suppose the views of most everybody else lie somewhere in-between.

In order to find a compromise, 4-day and 3-day periods have been discussed.

A few points have been raised. I'm wondering whether members would like to discuss them, before the community settles on the time frame and conditions for posting answers and/or worked solutions.

what is going to stop someone from posting a problem and simply waiting for 4 days?

no reason to object to [creating and showing the solution to similar problems] at any point in the process

[Students will be able to] come to this forum and get [answers]

If anybody would like to discuss further details about these (or other) points, please begin within the next week. In an absence of further discussion, staff needs to update written policy and set a date for implementation. In other words, this is the final call for discussion!

?

[imath]\;[/imath]

 

[JeffM]

I’d like to comment in reverse order

Students (other than the OP) will be able to come here and get answers (without doing and therefore learning anything.).

This is obviously true. It is an argument against a helper ever posting an answer (with or without steps). It is also an argument against letting even the OP from posting a solution.

However, I do not see it as a practical problem. If we are waiting days to post an answer, virtually no one in the same class will be able to use that answer, and the site is not readily searchable for students who get stuck on the same problem from the same text at a later time.

The benefit of giving an answer to the OP, on the other hand, is immediate and obvious. The OP gets to see the logic of solution after the OP has wrestled with the problem and should find therefore that the site provides a kind of help that will be useful for the remainder of his or her math education.

Showing the solution to a similar problem.

Because I brought this up in the first place, I’ll not dwell on it. It strikes me as a particularly good kind of hint on mechanical problems because it shows the logic of the solution, but leaves applying the logic to a specific problem entirely up to the student. It is why textbooks have example problems.

What stops an OP from posting a problem 4 days before it is due.

Nothing. But again is it a practical problem? We are not going to post in our guidelines, which sadly few read anyway, that we will post an answer in 4 days. And, despite Steven’s valid point that some students do do their work many days, even weeks, in advance, the probability that such students are going to wait for us to give an answer rather than do it on their own seems immaterially different from zero.