Volume of water: A conical glass is tilted against a wall. It is filled to the brim with water. Calculate the volume of water.

Janosik

New member
Joined
Mar 2, 2024
Messages
11
Hello everyone,

My question is not about homework. It's about a math problem I recently came across on Facebook.
It's been a while since I was in school, but I always enjoyed mathematics.

Here is the question:
A conical glass is tilted against a wall. It is filled to the brim with water. Calculate the volume of water.

ConicalGlass.jpg

I want to use the 'rod method' (as in not use the 'slices method').
Just to make sure we're talking abaout the same thing: I want to add the volume of an infinite number of rods, each rod being infinitely thin, starting at a bottom surface and reaching a top surface. This explanation is probably technically wrong, but I hope you understand what I mean.
[math]W=\int_{x_{low}}^{x_{high}}\int_{y_{low}}^{y_{high}}\int_{z_{low}}^{z_{high}}1\;dz\;dy\;dx[/math]
This is what I've found so far:

The equation of the cone is [imath]C:x^2+y^2=\left(\frac{9-z}{3}\right)^2[/imath]
Isolating z gives: [imath]z_{high}=9-3\sqrt{x^2+y^2}[/imath]

The equation of the inclined plane is [imath]V:2z+x=3[/imath]
Isolating z gives: [imath]z_{low}=\frac{3-x}{2}[/imath]

The intersection of the cone and the plane is an ellipse.
It's projection on the XY-plane is also an ellipse with equation [imath]E:35x^2-30x-255+36y^2=0[/imath]
Isolating y gives: [imath]y_{high}=\frac{1}{6}\sqrt{255+30x-35x^2}[/imath]

I chose to set [imath]y_{low}=0[/imath] (this wiil result in half the volume i'm looking for).

Point P is at: [imath]P(3,0,0)[/imath]
So [imath]x_{high}=3[/imath]

Point Q is at: [imath]Q\left(-\frac{15}{7},0,0\right)[/imath]
So [imath]x_{low}=-\frac{15}{7}[/imath]

Putting these results in the integrals, and trying to let my solver do the work gives this:
integraal_1.jpg

Sooo... can somebody please tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Thank you! :)
 
I can't look at your work in detail right now, but I'm responding just to get your question to the top, so that I or others don't forget it!

Long ago I worked out the formula for this volume (a special case of a conical ungula) by geometry alone, by viewing it as an oblique elliptical cone. The formula is not as complicated as your integrals, but took a lot of work.

I'll look at your work when I get a chance, if others haven't by then.
 
I should mention that in your problem it is the air, not the water, that is similar to an ungula, not actually a "special case". The ungula had a semicircular bases, while you have a circular base. But similar ideas can probably be used to calculate the volume.

Your integrals look correct, though unwieldy; I don't see why the software seems to treat it as an improper integral, and not finish it, but it's possible it can't be integrated in that form. Another method (slices rather than your triple integral? cylindrical coordinates?) may work better; as I said, I've solved it geometrically, so I know the formula is similar to what Wikipedia shows for the ungula.
 
Hello everyone,

My question is not about homework. It's about a math problem I recently came across on Facebook.
It's been a while since I was in school, but I always enjoyed mathematics.

Here is the question:
A conical glass is tilted against a wall. It is filled to the brim with water. Calculate the volume of water.

View attachment 37293
The intersection of the cone and the plane is an ellipse.
:)
From my understanding to the problem, the ellipse plane that crosses the cone has nothing to do with the area on the xy plane. If we want to calculate the volume of the cone, we are concerned about the area of the base of the cone which is a circle of radius 3. If the cone is elliptic, then we are concerned about an elliptic area on the xy-pane, which is not the case here.

Therefore, it doesn't matter if an elliptic plane or a normal plane is crossing the cone as long as it is crossing it completely. Your integral should be:

[imath]\displaystyle \int\int\int dz \ dy \ dx = \int_{-\frac{15}{7}}^{3} \int_{-\sqrt{3^2-x^2}}^{\sqrt{3^2-x^2}}\int_{\frac{3-x}{2}}^{9-3\sqrt{x^2+y^2}} \ dz \ dy \ dx [/imath]

I am assuming that your cone and plane equations are correct.
 
From my understanding to the problem, the ellipse plane that crosses the cone has nothing to do with the area on the xy plane. If we want to calculate the volume of the cone, we are concerned about the area of the base of the cone which is a circle of radius 3. If the cone is elliptic, then we are concerned about an elliptic area on the xy-pane, which is not the case here.
The intersection of the cone and the plane is an ellipse.
It's projection on the XY-plane is also an ellipse with equation ...
The integral has to be taken over this projection of the slanted ellipse, which is itself an ellipse.

If you integrate over the entire circle, you'll have negative z for part of it, and won't get the correct volume.

(I, too, am assuming the equations are correct.)
 
@mario99: thanks for your thoughts; I do appreciate it!

The integral has to be taken over this projection of the slanted ellipse, which is itself an ellipse.
I was pretty sure about this. But then again... I could have been wrong... :)

(I, too, am assuming the equations are correct.)
(Me too. But then again... I could be wrong... :):):))
I have checked them in a few drawing programs, and they seem to be OK.

I'm now trying some substitutions in order to avoid a possible 'zero-argument' in the ln(...). (see second image in start message)

I'll keep you informed.
And new suggestions are always welcome.
 
The integral has to be taken over this projection of the slanted ellipse, which is itself an ellipse.

If you integrate over the entire circle, you'll have negative z for part of it, and won't get the correct volume.

(I, too, am assuming the equations are correct.)
If you say so Dr.Peterson, then I am wrong.


@mario99: thanks for your thoughts; I do appreciate it!
You are welcome.

Sooo... can somebody please tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Thank you! :)
Are you saying here that your integral is not giving you a numerical result?

Even if I integrate through an elliptic area, I get a result. Do you have the final solution of this problem? (numerical solution)
 
I do have an elegant 'ready-cut' solution to this problem...
But I'm looking for a way to find the shown formula (or equivalent) myself.

volume_01.jpg
 
I do have an elegant 'ready-cut' solution to this problem...
But I'm looking for a way to find the shown formula (or equivalent) myself.

View attachment 37312
This is very interesting. There must be a way to get all of this. I am sure that one genius in here will figure it out soon or later.

My integral is:

[imath]\displaystyle \int_{(3/7)-\sqrt{359}/7}^{(3/7)+\sqrt{359}/7} \int_{-(1/6)\sqrt{-35x^2+30x+255}}^{(1/6)\sqrt{-35x^2+30x+255}}\int_{\frac{3-x}{2}}^{9-3\sqrt{x^2+y^2}} \ dz \ dy \ dx \approx 50.5767[/imath]

Since [imath]50.5767 \neq 51.2061[/imath], there must be a slight error in setting the integral which I cannot find out.

🥺
 
The formula I derived 22 years ago without calculus is [math]V=\frac{\pi h}{3}\frac{\left(Rr\right)^{3/2}}{R-r}[/math]
where R is the radius at the base, r is the radius at the other end of the cut surface, and h is the height at that point.

Applying this to your example, R = 3, r = [imath]\frac{15}{7}[/imath], and h = [imath]\frac{3+\frac{15}{7}}{2}=\frac{18}{7}[/imath], so I get [math]V=\frac{18\pi}{21}\frac{\left(3\cdot\frac{15}{7}\right)^{3/2}}{3-\frac{15}{7}}=51.2061[/math]
What you show now is helpful in that it tells us what variables you want to use, so I can look into how to make such a formula. This may provide a different perspective that makes it easier to solve. Wish me luck!
 
The formula I derived 22 years ago without calculus is [math]V=\frac{\pi h}{3}\frac{\left(Rr\right)^{3/2}}{R-r}[/math]
where R is the radius at the base, r is the radius at the other end of the cut surface, and h is the height at that point.
This is indeed impressive! :oops:

What you show now is helpful in that it tells us what variables you want to use, so I can look into how to make such a formula. This may provide a different perspective that makes it easier to solve. Wish me luck!
The 'starting variables' don't matter much to me, as long as they can be found from the data in my first post.
Same for the 'resulting formula'... We now already have 2 formulas that yield the same result. A third would be nice, right...;)
Good luck!!!:thumbup:
 
Last edited:
A question to Dr.Peterson. Why did the calculus approach give incorrect result? Was there something wrong in one or more of the OP's formulas?
 
A question to Dr.Peterson. Why did the calculus approach give incorrect result? Was there something wrong in one or more of the OP's formulas?
I have no idea. I don't even know if it's really wrong, only that his software doesn't seem to have worked.

I'm currently trying (in my spare time) to derive his formula from mine, and may consider a calculus approach eventually. I'm inclined toward a slice approach to the cut-off part of the cone (the "air").
 
My integral is:

[imath]\displaystyle \int_{(3/7)-\sqrt{359}/7}^{(3/7)+\sqrt{359}/7} \int_{-(1/6)\sqrt{-35x^2+30x+255}}^{(1/6)\sqrt{-35x^2+30x+255}}\int_{\frac{3-x}{2}}^{9-3\sqrt{x^2+y^2}} \ dz \ dy \ dx \approx 50.5767[/imath]
Can you please try Xlow=-15/7 and Xhigh=3?
You can also set Ylow=0 wich will result in half the total volume...
Thank you ;)
 
... I'm inclined toward a slice approach to the cut-off part of the cone (the "air").
In message #1 I asked to use the 'rod-method', because I used that method to solve a few other similar problems.
But, as I can't get it to work, I'm also thinking about trying the 'slice-method'...
I'll have to start with a few simple exercises to get comfortable with that method.
 
Can you please try Xlow=-15/7 and Xhigh=3?
You can also set Ylow=0 wich will result in half the total volume...
Thank you ;)
If I do this, part of the ellipse area on the xy-plane will be missing.
 
If I do this, part of the ellipse area on the xy-plane will be missing.

EllCyl.jpg
The pink cylinder starts from the elliptic 'shadow' on the xy-plane.
Its wall will exactly touch the edge of the cut cone.
I'm looking for ALL rods (but ONLY those) inside the pink elliptical cylinder,
'rooting' from the floor (=cutting plane),
and 'growing' to the ceiling (=cone).
I have checked the equations for the bounds again...
 
View attachment 37337
The pink cylinder starts from the elliptic 'shadow' on the xy-plane.
Its wall will exactly touch the edge of the cut cone.
I'm looking for ALL rods (but ONLY those) inside the pink elliptical cylinder,
'rooting' from the floor (=cutting plane),
and 'growing' to the ceiling (=cone).
I have checked the equations for the bounds again...
Thank you for the drawing.

Are you saying here that the ellipse area on the xy-plane should start at x = -15/7 and end at x = 3? Then, the ellipse equation you have given us is not correct! It starts at [imath]x = \frac{3}{7} - \frac{\sqrt{359}}{7}[/imath] and end at [imath]x = \frac{3}{7} + \frac{\sqrt{359}}{7}[/imath]. May be this is why we are getting a wrong result by calculus approach?!
 
Thank you for the drawing.

Are you saying here that the ellipse area on the xy-plane should start at x = -15/7 and end at x = 3? Then, the ellipse equation you have given us is not correct! It starts at [imath]x = \frac{3}{7} - \frac{\sqrt{359}}{7}[/imath] and end at [imath]x = \frac{3}{7} + \frac{\sqrt{359}}{7}[/imath]. May be this is why we are getting a wrong result by calculus approach?!
I never checked details of the OP. There's a typo here:
The intersection of the cone and the plane is an ellipse.
It's projection on the XY-plane is also an ellipse with equation [imath]E:35x^2-30x-255+36y^2=0[/imath]
Isolating y gives: [imath]y_{high}=\frac{1}{6}\sqrt{255+30x-35x^2}[/imath]
The 255 should be 225:

[imath]E:35x^2-30x-225+36y^2=0[/imath]​
[imath]y_{high}=\frac{1}{6}\sqrt{225+30x-35x^2}[/imath]​

The endpoints of this ellipse are indeed 3 and [imath]-\frac{15}{7}[/imath]. So it's just a typo on that one line, not an error that propagates. In fact, you can see the 225 in the work below that.
 
Top